The Official Salk Sound Owner's And Discussion Thread

[Mudslide]

Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy

I wanted to wear my jeans, but I washed the wrong pair--the ones with the broken zipper. Not a great statment to make. Open to all kinds of interpretations.

Ported subwoofer?

Seriously...congrats on finishing the Beasts Dennis and Jim. They're simply gorgeous, as we would expect. I can't wait to hear them!!!!!!!!

[rydenfan]

I'm sure they sound amazing! The look of them is not for me though.

[thirdeye11]

Originally Posted by rydenfan

I'm sure they sound amazing! The look of them is not for me though.

Have to agree, they're pretty ugly aren't they? Sound is what is most important with speakers, but a pretty good portion of why I bought the SongTowers is because they're a drop dead gorgeous looking speaker. I'd have to have a dedicated (dark!) room to put some Beasts in. And a better job that pays more.

[Nuance]

Originally Posted by thirdeye11

Have to agree, they're pretty ugly aren't they? Sound is what is most important with speakers, but a pretty good portion of why I bought the SongTowers is because they're a drop dead gorgeous looking speaker. I'd have to have a dedicated (dark!) room to put some Beasts in. And a better job that pays more.

+1. But if I had all those things, it would be a no brainer.

Sound quality is the most important attribute for me, but if I can have something that equals SQ in the looks department, I'm all for it. In fact, I prefer it. Still, I'd be willing to bet those HT4's are Revel, Kef, Wilson and B&W destroyers.

[thirdeye11]

Originally Posted by Nuance

+1. But if I had all those things, it would be a no brainer.

Sound quality is the most important attribute for me, but if I can have something that equals SQ in the looks department, I'm all for it. In fact, I prefer it. Still, I'd be willing to bet those HT4's are Revel, Kef, Wilson and B&W destroyers.

The innovative new drivers alone makes me wonder what they sound like. I've not seen speakers with this unique lineup of drivers.. .maybe ever. They just defy typical conventions on what *I* personally know speakers to look like. That is really exciting for me.

Back when I sold high end A/V equipment I was always intrigued by new developments, but this one is a pretty rare accomplishment I'm guessing. I also would in my mind "shun" the rear-wave design simply because it's not what I know and love: direct radiating speakers. It reminds me of a dipole or bipole design. I'd still listen first though to make any reserved judgments because I give Jim Salk and Dennis Miller some pretty rare exceptions.

-Chad

[majorloser]

Originally Posted by Mudslide

Ported subwoofer?

Seriously...congrats on finishing the Beasts Dennis and Jim. They're simply gorgeous, as we would expect. I can't wait to hear them!!!!!!!!

I second that!

Can't wait to get a "private" listening session with these this October in Oregon.

[Dennis Murphy]

Originally Posted by thirdeye11

Back when I sold high end A/V equipment I was always intrigued by new developments, but this one is a pretty rare accomplishment I'm guessing. I also would in my mind "shun" the rear-wave design simply because it's not what I know and love: direct radiating speakers. It reminds me of a dipole or bipole design. I'd still listen first though to make any reserved judgments because I give Jim Salk and Dennis Miller some pretty rare exceptions.

-Chad

Two things. First, Dennis Miller and Dennis Murphy are two very different concepts. Dennis Miller is funnier and could actually afford to buy a pair of these things, which-- second point--can be played with or without any rear wave contribution. Or with something in between. It's continuously adjustable.

[Nuance]

^ Haha, good catch. And you're right - Miller is a hoot.

I showed my wife a pic of the "Beasts" today... I'll let you guess what she said. Regardless, if I could afford something like that, they'd go in a dedicated room anyway. Besides, they aren't that bad to look at. I'd make the room modern, to match the speakers.

Mmm...talking about the HT4's gets me riled up. I really want to hear them!

[thirdeye11]

Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy

Two things. First, Dennis Miller and Dennis Murphy are two very different concepts. Dennis Miller is funnier and could actually afford to buy a pair of these things, which-- second point--can be played with or without any rear wave contribution. Or with something in between. It's continuously adjustable.

Haha how funny. I usually re-read everything I type, but I missed that one! He is a funny dude though. I love the fact that the speaker is adjustable, but $14k is still out of my budget for many years to come.

[Chu Gai]

They seem kind of retro/avante garde to me and the styling kind of reminds me the old Wurlitzer juke boxes or for that matter this very old floor standing radio...about 4' high that my parents decided was old enough to be junked when I went to college. I like it.

When can we expect to see a suite of measurements?

[Dennis Murphy]

Originally Posted by Chu Gai

They seem kind of retro/avante garde to me and the styling kind of reminds me the old Wurlitzer juke boxes or for that matter this very old floor standing radio...about 4' high that my parents decided was old enough to be junked when I went to college. I like it.

When can we expect to see a suite of measurements?

I'll do a short white paper with the design rationale and complete measurements when we get the final design set. I can say this, however. The dudes at FAL appear to have defied the laws of physics. The off-axis measurements are just as extended as the on-axis out to 15 khz with no crossover in place, and exact replicas of the on-axis over the operating range of the mid. This driver was designed as full-range, and does a much better job of that than most so-called full-range drivers. But the sweet spot in the response is much narrower, and currently it only operates between 400 and 1800 Hz in the Beast.

[Chu Gai]

Although I can't think of their name, there are a few speakers from overseas that also use full range drivers but truncate their operating region. Looking forward to seeing a comprehensive suite of measurements. BTW, are the crossovers tailored to each individual set of speakers?

[Atlplasma]

I'm curious about something and thought that maybe some of the more acoustically knowledgeable thread followers might be able to provide some answers.

The other day I was listening to Raising Sand, the new CD from Robert Plant and Alison Krauss, at an elevated but not overly loud level. I was sitting about 16 to 18 feet away from my ST RTs and really enjoying the music. My wife commented that it was waaaay too loud.

My hearing is fairly sensitive (even for a 50+ guy). My wife's hearing on the other hand is compromised by tinnitus and some rock-groupie-related hearing loss. Dialog on DVD tracks is always a problem.

I wonder if her hearing issues are influencing her perception of the listening experience. Is she perceiving the music as "too loud" because much of the higher frequency information is being lost or at least muddled. Are there any ways for someone with this type of hearing loss to compensate for what nature has taken away?

Any thoughts?

[Mudslide]

Originally Posted by Atlplasma

I'm curious about something and thought that maybe some of the more acoustically knowledgeable thread followers might be able to provide some answers.

The other day I was listening to Raising Sand, the new CD from Robert Plant and Alison Krauss, at an elevated but not overly loud level. I was sitting about 16 to 18 feet away from my ST RTs and really enjoying the music. My wife commented that it was waaaay too loud.

My hearing is fairly sensitive (even for a 50+ guy). My wife's hearing on the other hand is compromised by tinnitus and some rock-groupie-related hearing loss. Dialog on DVD tracks is always a problem.

I wonder if her hearing issues are influencing her perception of the listening experience. Is she perceiving the music as "too loud" because much of the higher frequency information is being lost or at least muddled. Are there any ways for someone with this type of hearing loss to compensate for what nature has taken away?

Any thoughts?

My wife tells me "It's TOO loud" when I'm playing music she doesn't like!

More seriously though, she could have hearing loss or frequency sensitivities that actually cause eardrum pain. My wife is in a similar situation to yours and ended up going to an audiologist and has obtained hearing aids. We now share equivalent opinions on speaker presentation issues (clarity, etc.).

[kitsum]

Tone controls (treble) and old school equalizers can compensate for minor hearing loss. But it sucks when you have to get to that point.

[Nuance]

As promised here is some more info about the new HT4 (all paraphrased from Jim Salk):

The cabinets are built in two sections. The total height is about 42". The woofer section is 15" wide and 23" deep. I would guess the 10" version will be about the same height, about 12" wide and perhaps 15" deep (or slightly deeper).

Time to cover the most often asked question...how much will these cost?

Well, we decided that the first pair we built would be constructed out of solid bamboo. Not having worked with it in this fashion, I didn't expect it to be much different than any other material. I was wrong.

If you put an 80-grit belt on a belt sander, turn it on and lean on it hard, you will barely be able to create any dust. We burned out one router and one belt sander on this pair alone. I think that would be par for the course. It took Sam 3 1/2 days to sand the woofer cabinets alone.

So it became increasingly apparent that bamboo cabinets, while incredibly solid and inert, would be expensive. I guess that is par for the course since everything about this design is expensive.

While at AKFest, Constantine Soo from Dagogo asked me the cost. I told him I didn't know. He told me he needed a price for his write-up. So I did my best to figure it out on the spot. Yikes!

The next morning on my way back to the show, I got to thinking about comments I had heard the day before. "Too bad I can't afford those," and, "those are too large for my room" were often heard. I expected the first comment. But I had not anticipated the second and it made me think.

The 12" woofer section was developed in order to deliver bass extension to 20Hz. But, other than perhaps pipes organs and Japanese Tyko drums, there aren't really any instruments that play that low. In reality, you really only need to go just below 30Hz to cover almost all traditional musical instruments.

I turns out that the bottom of the top section is 12" wide. The woofer section of our Veracity HT3 design is also 12" wide. So, if we developed a woofer section based on 10" drivers, they would still handle almost all traditional instruments, but they would be smaller (about the same dimensions as the top and about the same size as the current HT3's), they would be easier to build because no taper would be required at the top of the woofer cabinet, and they would be less costly. We could also do versions in MDF as well as bamboo.

In earlier discussions on this circle, there seemed to be a consensus that it would be nice if this speaker would come in at under $10K. Earlier, I thought that was simply an impossibility. But with four variations, it seems that it may indeed be possible.

Here are the four variations and associated costs:

"If we build the speaker using a 12" woofer section and construct with solid bamboo, the cost would be $17,999 plus upgrades, if any.

If we build the speaker using a 12" woofer section and construct with MDF, the cost would be $13,999, plus the cost of veneer.

About $1500 of the cost differential is the cost of bamboo, the rest is increased labor and tools.

If we build the speaker using a 10" woofer section and construct with solid bamboo, the cost would be $11,999.

If we build the speaker using a 10" woofer section and construct with MDF, the cost would be $9999, plus the cost of veneer.

These are very substantial cabinets. The speaker weigh in at 155 pounds each."

To answer a potential question on bamboo vs. MDF and it's performance differences, as well as performance differences between the different sized woofers, here is Dennis Murphy's comment from Audio Circle:

"Hi My prototypes are made out of mdf, and they're rock solid. So I wouldn't expect any sonic difference from bamboo--just aesthetic. Jim hasn't picked a 10" driver yet, so it's too early to talk about overall performance differences. But in terms of accuracy above 28 Hz, clarity, and soundstaging, I doubt that the 10" woofer will end up making any difference."

Finally, for those interested, here is the thread in which you can offer name suggestions for the HT4 "Beast." I believe the winner gets a t-shirt and possible other various promotional prizes.

[Nuance]

Here are some FR performance plots of the HT4, along with an impedance plot.

On-Axis:



15 degrees off-axis:



30 degrees off-axis:



You'll notice how similar the FR is, even off-axis. That is truly impressive! A comment from Jim Salk:

" Measurements up to about 80 degrees do not look much different. When walking around the room at AKFeset last week-end, I was struck by the fact that no matter where you were in the room, the speakers sounded about the same. Sure, bass response will obviously be different in different parts of a given room, but there seemed to be no change in sound from the upper bass regions on up. I have never heard a speaker do this before."

Impedance Plot:

[Nuance]

Here is some more info about the design of the HT4, courtesy of Jim Salk taken from the Audio Circle forum:

OK...now on to some specifics.

First, let me say that, from the onset, this design was all about performance and at no time did we make compromises in order to control the price of the finished speaker. As it turned out, everything about this speaker turned out to be expensive.

Let's start with the drivers.

The tweeter is a custom RAAL tweeter from Serbia. In talking with Aleksander, we were able to come up with a tweeter that had multiple taps that resulted in three levels of sensitivity. This allows us to offer three tweeter levels with absolutely no change in the basic tweeter crossover. In the production prototype we showed at AKFest, we had a flat setting along with a 1 1/2db boost and cut. At the show, we talked about this feature and decided that owners would be very unlikely to use the 1 1/2db boost. So the decision was made to modify the crossover so that, in the final version, we would have a flat setting, a 1 1/2 db cut and a 3db cut.

This is one of the finest ribbon tweeters currently being made, and we are very happy to have been able to work with RAAL on this project.

The midrange is something very unique. We were approached about a year ago by FAL. They had a flat diaphragm design that looked interesting but was quite unconventional. We had no idea at the time whether this represented a break-through in driver technology, or was just another audio gimmick. Seas, ScanSpeak and others were all coming out with new driver technologies at the time and we bought samples of all of the latest cutting-edge drivers. When we built test cabinets, we cut baffles for all of these drivers, including the FAL. We then listened to all of them. There really wasn't a bad driver in the bunch. But there was something very unique about the sound of the FAL. No matter where we went in the room, the sound emanating from the FAL driver was very coherent. As you walked around the room, you could plainly hear changes in the frequency response of all other midrange drivers. Not so with the FAL. We had kind of mentally written the FAL off initially as kind of a novelty design, but nothing to take too seriously. But these initial listening sessions caused us to take a more serious look. And, in the end, designs worked up with this driver did some things no other combination of drivers could do.

For the woofer, we had used TC Sounds woofers in our HT3 and really liked the results. We wanted bass extension down to about 20Hz, so we obviously needed a larger driver than the 10" in our HT3's. So we made arrangements to have a similar performing 12" version of the same basic driver manufactured by Acoustic Elegance (John Janowitz designed).

At first, we tried a simple ported design. But when you are producing bass this low, the air velocity at the port was high enough to dry your hair and the port noise was not acceptable. Next, Paul Kittinger worked up a transmission line version for us. But, alas, port noise was still a problem. So we turned to Jeff Bagby to work up a design with passive radiators. This would allow the extension required without any port noise. And the decision was made to use two passive radiators so that their vibrations would cancel each other out and keep cabinet resonance to a minimum.

Now we had the drivers and it was on to cabinet design...

Early on, one of our primary design goals was to design a speaker with a very deep and wide soundstage, along with a good deal of ambiance. This had a profound effect on cabinet design.

For example, we wanted no baffle around the tweeter. This would allow sound emanating from the tweeter to travel as close to 360-degrees as possible. Of course, from an aesthetic point of view, you wouldn't want the tweeter body and wiring to show. So the tweeter enclosure had to hold the tweeter in place and then get out of the way. Minimalistic was the word of the day.

We also wanted a midrange cabinet that was quite small so that, again, dispersion would not be hampered by a large front baffle. And we also wanted to take advantage of the backwave of the midrange driver to provide added ambiance. Of course, an open baffle design would allow for a great deal of ambiance. But there are also problems involved with open baffle designs. While they can produce a nice feeling of spaciousness where orchestral reproduction is concerned, the added ambiance has a tendency to make female vocalists sound like their mouth is 10 feet wide. And there is a matter of cancellations in the boundary areas where the front wave and back wave intersect, causing a null in response.

By going with a long tube, you can avoid some of these boundary effects. What's more, the user can stuff the the "tube" to varying degrees to achieve the appropriate level of ambiance for his particular room and taste. You can even close the back entirely for a sealed response.

In order to hit the target of 20Hz, the woofer section needed to be somewhat large. And we decided early on to use 2" thick walls and internal bracing to keep the cabinet resonances to an absolute minimum. Opposing passive radiators would not only eliminate any possibility of port noise, but since they would be moving in opposite directions, their vibrations would cancel out as well.

So this left us with a considerable design challenge. We had a large "box" for the woofer section, a small "box" for the midrange and almost no "box" for the tweeter. When we stacked these boxes up, it made a very un-appealing visual statement.

So we began working up a series of CAD drawings to see what we could do to deal with the aesthetic issues we found ourselves confronted with.

It became apparent, very early on, that we would not be able to use standard construction methods to build these enclosures. So we decided to use a trans-lamination process. Instead of cutting panels, we cut shapes. The top cabinet is made from about 18 pieces of 3/4" material while the woofer section was built with about 30 laminated layers.

This lamination process allowed us to construct a cabinet with multiple compound radii and walls of any thickness desired. It also meant we would have to use CNC routers and very labor-intensive processes to build the cabinets.

Concerning caps used:

The standard cap will be Solen. But we expect that customers ordering these speakers may want higher end caps and we will, of course, be happy to upgrade to whatever caps they would like. Caps can be very expensive, especially in a 3-way where large values are required. Some people don't think caps make that great a difference. So we don't want to force them to pay extra for caps they would not otherwise purchase. But others feel caps make a huge difference. So if someone wants Mundorf, for example, we will be happy to build crossovers with them.

I hope that helps, folks. Personally, I think offering four variations is genius, and it helps make this flagship speaker more attainable to those with varying budgets. Kudos to Jim, Dennis and the rest of the team. I look forward to hearing the "Beast" soon.

[Chu Gai]

A Serbian tweeter? The FAL...someone said that was somewhat similar to the Heil designs. Is that the case?

[Dennis Murphy]

Originally Posted by Chu Gai

A Serbian tweeter? The FAL...someone said that was somewhat similar to the Heil designs. Is that the case?

Hi. No--The Heil works on an entirely different principle. The RAAL is just a better execution of basic ribbon technology. We're using the OEM version, which has a ribbon element twice the width of the regular version, plus a few other features. The RAAL confers two advantges that made its choice pretty much a no brainer for us. First, it (the OEM)has much better power handling at lower frequencies than other ribbons of similar height. That meant I could cross it at 1.8 kHz, which proved optimal for restricting the midrange to the bandwidth that it handled best, both in terms of direct forward radiation and in uncolored rear radiation through the open transmission line to the rear. Second, the RAAL is smoother and more extended than any other ribbon I've used. It's really not hype. We played a jazz cut at the Audio KarmaFest in Michigan last week that proved the point. Anyone who lives in the Washington, D.C. area, or is passing through, is welcome to stop by and listen to this selection in an A-B with the Salk HT3's. Or any other speaker you wish to bring along. The difference is not subtle, and it's not a matter of sizzle or added harmonic distortion. It's simply a matter of capturing the completely open sound you hear in a live venue when the program material includes triangles, cymbals, and bells.

[Atlplasma]

Originally Posted by Mudslide

My wife tells me "It's TOO loud" when I'm playing music she doesn't like!

More seriously though, she could have hearing loss or frequency sensitivities that actually cause eardrum pain. My wife is in a similar situation to yours and ended up going to an audiologist and has obtained hearing aids. We now share equivalent opinions on speaker presentation issues (clarity, etc.).

Thanks for sharing and suggesting the audiologist. That may do the trick.

[Zues]

Hmm, don't really like the look of these. The design seems to be outdated with those big woofers. How would these integrate with subwoofers? I guess these would be marketed to 2 channel die hards that don't like subwoofers and think these would be a better value compared to something like b&w 802's.

[Mozvz]

Nuance,

Thank you for posting the design process and data information on the HT4. I do like the menu Jim proposes of 4 different variations of the HT 4. Good stuff.

[thirdeye11]

Originally Posted by Zues

Hmm, don't really like the look of these. The design seems to be outdated with those big woofers. How would these integrate with subwoofers? I guess these would be marketed to 2 channel die hards that don't like subwoofers and think these would be a better value compared to something like b&w 802's.

Considering that these and B&W 802D's are in a very similar price range I would be surprised if these don't do everything the 802's do but better. I speak from experience listening to Salk speakers priced well below the 802's. Even my SongTowers match almost everything the 802's do except the low frequency extension. A tall order for speakers that cost <$2,000.

If what Jim describes is true about above 80hz there is no difference at almost any angle walking around the room in FR I can assure you that no B&W speaker does that. I sold them for quite a long time

[chirpie]

Originally Posted by Zues

The design seems to be outdated with those big woofers. How would these integrate with subwoofers?

I'd imagine you could get the 10 inch incarnation model if that was truly a concern.

[Nuance]

The big woofers are there so you don't need a subwoofer. And by the way, they are passive woofers so the bass module didn't have to be ported (for reasons described above). The speakers go flat to 20Hz, so from a music standpoint you just wouldn't need a subwoofer. These HT4's will appeal mostly to 2-channel fans, though. Home theater enthusiasts will probably still use a subwoofer (or two or three). If it were me and I could afford the HT4's, and if I liked their sound (haven't heard them yet), they'd go in a strictly 2-channel, dedicated (and treated) room.

[Zues]

To me when i look at a speaker like that i see a pair of bookshelves sitting on top of a bass cabinet. I also envision needing a serious amp to push those woofers properly. If they where powered woofers i would be more interested in that type of design. I think it's overkill to have a 300w+ plus amp running your mids and highs just so your woofers are powered properly. That's the beauty of powered subs. You only need a moderate power amp to run the mids and highs. Atleast that's what i think.

[Zues]

Originally Posted by chirpie

I'd imagine you could get the 10 inch incarnation model if that was truly a concern.

10 inch would still be a little to boomy. A couple 8in woofers for strong mid bass and a subwoofer would be sweet though.

[penngray]

Originally Posted by Zues

Hmm, don't really like the look of these. The design seems to be outdated with those big woofers. How would these integrate with subwoofers? I guess these would be marketed to 2 channel die hards that don't like subwoofers and think these would be a better value compared to something like b&w 802's.

You really do not know much about high end designs if you think big woofers are outdated and you do not realize what new 12" drivers are out there....
I think 8" drivers are absolutely a joke when it comes to performance, you need multiples to match a great 12" driver. ( I have owned both and for pure performance, 12" is better!). Trust me 12" is coming back in a BIG way....look at the best peformance speakers from Seaton, JTR, Geddes...do you see little single wimpy 8" drivers? nope

10 inch would still be a little to boomy. A couple 8in woofers for strong mid bass and a subwoofer would be sweet though.

Once again, you are wrong about assuming a 10" driver is automatically boomy.I have 12" drivers that will beat any 8" driver you want to compare against from 40Hz to 500Hz and they run flat to 2000Hz if I want.

8" and 6 1/2" drivers didn't become popular because they have better SQ, they became popular because people like small, people like BOSE.

The ultimate designs still have kick ass 10, 12 or even 15" drivers involved. People that do not understand that need to do a little research

[penngray]

The big woofers are there so you don't need a subwoofer.

It does both very well, gets the low end and creates the higher midbass better then smaller drivers.

To create output we need to have displacement, to have displacement and displacement = XMAX * surface area.....silly little 6.5" and 8" drivers do not cut it for sure performance