1080/24p XA2....Why a dead even 24hz output and not 23.xx???

[Toe]

I thought 24p output in actuality was slightly under that at 23.xx which is what my PS3 sends out when putting out 1080/24p, but the XA2 is putting out a dead even 24hz signal....Why? Is it just that BR discs and HD-DVD discs have a slightly different freq rate for 24p output, or is it something to do with the XA2 24p output???

[Gary Murrell]

I think that could be causing the frame dropping issues

my best guess

-Gary

[Toe]

But I thought it was NOT exactly 24 in reality (read this somewhere) and it was infact 23.xx which is what the PS3 reports and I suspect what other blu-ray players would report as well. I am just wondering which is correct, or if both are correct and it is due to the diference between HD-DVD and Blu-ray or what? This COULD be the reason for the jerkiness that some have seen (including myself with Training Day on HD-DVD) even though seems to be jiving correctly between components (my RS1 is reporting a dead even 48hz signal that it is receiving while the PS3 gives me a 47.xx)

Edit: What happened to the response right above mine which is what I was commenting on?

[bferr1]

Come to think of it, wasn't there a similar frame glitch issue with the Pioneer Elite and Sony G1 players, as far as 24Hz, when they first came out? I really believe there was...

[Toe]

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell

I think that could be causing the frame dropping issues

my best guess

-Gary

Could be.

Just seems kind of odd that the PS3 and XA2 report slightly different freq for 24p output. I would think these would be identical....maybe not.

[Toe]

Originally Posted by bferr1

Come to think of it, wasn't there a similar frame glitch issue with the Pioneer Elite and Sony G1 players, as far as 24Hz, when they first came out? I really believe there was...

Oh yeah? Never read about that. What exactly was going on?

[Gary Murrell]

the problem with the Sony and Pioneer was the output was exactly 24p instead of 23.976

and come to think of it, they exibited the exact same behavior as the XA2 does right now

this is probably the same issue with the XA2

-Gary

[bferr1]

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell

the problem with the Sony and Pioneer was the output was exactly 24p instead of 23.976

and come to think of it, they exibited the exact same behavior as the XA2 does right now

this is probably the same issue with the XA2

-Gary

Which was resolvable by firmware updates. There's hope for the XA2 yet!

[Manchild]

Film is captured at 24fps...the 23.976 figure you're referencing is the frame rate achieved when a 3-2 IVTC process is applied to 29.97 NTSC color video. The whole 29.97/23.976 frame rate issue came about with the introduction of color into television. The reason it has been carried over into home theater is that up until recently all TVs operated in NTSC specifications. In order to have the 24 frame film transported in the NTSC carrier you needed the 23.976 rate. As far as I know nowadays all film is captured in a 24.000 frame rate.

[NMJack]

Originally Posted by Toe

Edit: What happened to the response right above mine which is what I was commenting on?

That was my post, and I deleted it after I posted it because I was questioning if I really knew what I was talking about (a forum first?). But seriously, the original post suggested that the players output exactly 24fps because that is what film cameras film at. Then I remembered(?) that North American power is not exactly 60HZ, which had me reasoning that film cameras driven by that power probably weren't exactly 2/5 of that. Since I had clearly crossed from fact to speculation, I decided a delete was in order. Sorry about the confusion.

[Toe]

Originally Posted by NMJack

That was my post, and I deleted it after I posted it because I was questioning if I really knew what I was talking about (a forum first?). But seriously, the original post suggested that the players output exactly 24fps because that is what film cameras film at. Then I remembered(?) that North American power is not exactly 60HZ, which had me reasoning that film cameras driven by that power probably weren't exactly 2/5 of that. Since I had clearly crossed from fact to speculation, I decided a delete was in order. Sorry about the confusion.

No worries! Thought I had lost my mind once again there for a minute

[Toe]

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell

the problem with the Sony and Pioneer was the output was exactly 24p instead of 23.976

and come to think of it, they exibited the exact same behavior as the XA2 does right now

this is probably the same issue with the XA2

-Gary

If this is indeed an issue, can this be resolved via FW? I would have to think yes, but who knows.

[Toe]

Also, for those interested, I sent a PM to Robert (HD-DVD dealer on AVS) and asked him if he could check what the A30 is sending out as far as vert freq to the HD1 (or RS1) for 1080/24p he has in his demo room. I am dying to know if it is sending an exact 48 like the XA2, or if it is the 47.xx like the PS3. Hope to hear back from him at some point soon.....

[kevivoe]

Originally Posted by Toe

If this is indeed an issue, can this be resolved via FW? I would have to think yes, but who knows.

You would need a different reference clock in the PLL to make this subtle change. 24 to 23.976 Hz That's a HW change. You could maybe change a divider ratio in the PLL with the same ref. clock but this would mean a large number ratio since the frequencies are close together ...

my opinion, I only work with PLL designers, I am not one of them.

[Toe]

Originally Posted by kevivoe

You would need a different reference clock in the PLL to make this subtle change. 24 to 23.976 Hz That's a HW change. You could maybe change a divider ratio in the PLL with the same ref. clock but this would mean a large number ratio since the frequencies are close together ...

my opinion, I only work with PLL designers, I am not one of them.

I have come to find out that the first Pioneer Blu-ray player did this as well and they addressed it with a FW update so I dont see any reason why the XA2 could not be addressed as well via FW.

[Randall Morton]

I don't see an issue with the XA2s new firmware at 24p. For the last few months I've been watching 24p on the RS1 from a Pioneer BDP HD1 and the XA2 now looks basically the same to me(speaking about lack of telecine judder). I don't see any glitches with HD DVD.

Anthem initially had the D2 reporting the 24fps number but was actually displaying at 23.976. There was nothing wrong but it worried some people so they changed it to report the 23.976. I'm sure the XA2 could be sending correct 24p and have it report any number they wanted.

[abr27440]

What is the problem? 24.000 fps is the correct rate for film. Check the ATSC standards, both 24.000 and 23.976 fps are valid rates. Just goes to show why people should not jump to conclusions about dropped frames (hint: your display probably does not support 24.000 fps properly).

[Toe]

Originally Posted by abr27440

What is the problem? 24.000 fps is the correct rate for film. Check the ATSC standards, both 24.000 and 23.976 fps are valid rates. Just goes to show why people should not jump to conclusions about dropped frames (hint: your display probably does not support 24.000 fps properly).

My display supports it. It displays at a multiple of 24 (RS1). I simply noticed today what Gary was talking about and I have never seen this with the PS3's 23.xx output which may or may not be the issue. Talking with another forum member one of the first gen blu-ray players had this same issue and was resolved via FW. Something is screwy with this update from what I saw today IMO.

[Gary Murrell]

it's dropping frames, many on the forum are saying this, very very subtle and rare, coming from the Sony S1 doing this very exact same thing, almost identical in nature and occurance, I can't help but think it is 23.976 vs 24, as this was the exact reason of the Sony S1 and Pioneer BD problems, there outputs are perfect now and where fixed via firmware

someone that has something to report and owns a Sony S1 and the XA2 should check, I bet the Sony shows 23.976 and the XA2 24

I am about as good in math as a 8 year old, so someone could figure roughly the frame dropage amounts, just not me

-Gary

[Sisko197]

Originally Posted by abr27440

What is the problem? 24.000 fps is the correct rate for film. Check the ATSC standards, both 24.000 and 23.976 fps are valid rates. Just goes to show why people should not jump to conclusions about dropped frames (hint: your display probably does not support 24.000 fps properly).

I love it when people come into a thread full of people saying they have a problem and try to announce, "There is no problem, it's all in your minds!" or "Obviously you don't know what you're doing."

Believe it or not, AVSforum has people who know what they're doing who are actually having a problem with a Toshiba HD DVD player. Oh, I know it's shocking to you.

I'm not updating my XA2 again until there's a firmware not widely reported to be flawed. Especially when one of the people having trouble is using the same projector (RS1) as me. Which, btw, is VERY capable of 24fps playback. My PS3 never had any problems. Why should this Toshiba HD DVD player? (Almost seems like a trick question when I think of combo discs...)

[Kroenen]

Originally Posted by Randall Morton

I don't see an issue with the XA2s new firmware at 24p. For the last few months I've been watching 24p on the RS1 from a Pioneer BDP HD1 and the XA2 now looks basically the same to me(speaking about lack of telecine judder). I don't see any glitches with HD DVD.

Yep, no issues with HD DVD, 1080p24 and my RS1 either. I watched 5 movies today. I haven't tested interactive content, but I did test the menus during two of the movies; no issues there either.

The playback was just as smooth as my BD-P1200 which sends a direct 1080p24 video stream.

[Toe]

Originally Posted by Kroenen

Yep, no issues with HD DVD, 1080p24 and my RS1 either. I watched 5 movies today. I haven't tested interactive content, but I did test the menus during two of the movies; no issues there either.

The playback was just as smooth as my BD-P1200 which sends a direct 1080p24 video stream.

What is the RS1 reporting for the BD-P1200 1080/24 signal freq wise in the advanced menu? Is it 47.xx or 48 exactly?

Glad you had good results. I need to watch some more discs, but like I said in the short time I experimented I saw some stutering in Training Day HD-DVD on the RS1 and the menu was very choppy coming in when I pulled it up (this did not surprise me though as I figured this was probably not in 1080/24p).

[JeffY]

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell

it's dropping frames, many on the forum are saying this, very very subtle and rare, coming from the Sony S1 doing this very exact same thing, almost identical in nature and occurance, I can't help but think it is 23.976 vs 24, as this was the exact reason of the Sony S1 and Pioneer BD problems, there outputs are perfect now and where fixed via firmware

someone that has something to report and owns a Sony S1 and the XA2 should check, I bet the Sony shows 23.976 and the XA2 24

I am about as good in math as a 8 year old, so someone could figure roughly the frame dropage amounts, just not me

-Gary

Try setting your output to 60.00 Hz instead or 59.94.

[dr1394]

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell

it's dropping frames, many on the forum are saying this, very very subtle and rare, coming from the Sony S1 doing this very exact same thing, almost identical in nature and occurance, I can't help but think it is 23.976 vs 24, as this was the exact reason of the Sony S1 and Pioneer BD problems, there outputs are perfect now and where fixed via firmware

someone that has something to report and owns a Sony S1 and the XA2 should check, I bet the Sony shows 23.976 and the XA2 24

I am about as good in math as a 8 year old, so someone could figure roughly the frame dropage amounts, just not me

-Gary

The exact ratio is 1000/1001. You should see a drop every 1000 frames. 1000/24 = 41.667 seconds.

Ron

[joerod]

And the cadence breaks are very quick. If you look away for a second you can miss them. There is no way possible if it is sending exactly 24 that you would not have them! Same issue I had with the Pioneer HD1 until they released a firmware fix. At first i though it was perfect until I started seeing the breaks. It was probably by my third movie I started to pick up on it... They will be able to correct it... I just wish they would have done more homework before...

[Zodon]

Originally Posted by dr1394

The exact ratio is 1000/1001. You should see a drop every 1000 frames. 1000/24 = 41.667 seconds.

Ron

This is actually about how often I see the skips...now where's my stop watch?

[bferr1]

Originally Posted by rdjam

There is no issue here....

Yes, there is an issue. In fact, there are two issues: frame drops and audio sync.

[Gary Murrell]

Originally Posted by dr1394

The exact ratio is 1000/1001. You should see a drop every 1000 frames. 1000/24 = 41.667 seconds.

Ron

thats exactly how often I see them

thanks Doc

and yes audio sync is horrible as bferr mentioned not that it is chaning all over the place, it is just really far behind, I'd say easily 2 to 2+ frames

-Gary

[MauneyM]

You mention audio sync - I'm not seeing it with pure 1080p/24 content. However, I see it in spades when the content is SD DVD or video-based; menus, special features, etc., all have to be set to 1080p/60 to look right.

I also seem to notice different behavior on different titles. U-571, for example, didn't exhibit frame dropping (at least not that I saw), and 300 looked pretty good, too. However, I saw some VERY strange behavior in Grand Prix. I haven't had much more time with the new firmware, but it doesn't seem to be consistent in it's behavior.

FWIW, I'm running the XA2 direct to a JVC RS-1 via HDMI, and using the 5.1 analog outs.

[Gary Murrell]

I am seeing ( or hearing ) the audio lag via HDMI and only when using the 1080p/24 output, I think I heard someone else say no audio lag either via analog so it may be HDMI only

the lip sync via HDMI is not a problem for me per say because I can dial in a perfect lip sync correction on my Onkyo 885 pre-amp, but many others can't so it needs fixing badly

-Gary