Tosh G2 HD-A2 and HD-XA2 information and discussion

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer

As far as I know, E1's are the only players clearing customs in Europe. The HD-A2's were just released last week from US customs and are in final TACP USA QC testing.

Yes we are expecting the DTS-HD audio upgrade.

-Robert

Begging pardon for a slight step OT -- have you heard anything about this relative to the G1?

[dtsfanoh]

Originally Posted by REFLEX

Well.... looks like we might be getting the A2's this week... hopefully. Was this unit's launch shoved back previously? It would be a shame if it happened again! Also yes... Monoprice.com is a great resource! Friendly, great quality, CHEAP prices and fast shipping.

FWIW, I stopped by a local BB today and was told (they looked in computer) the HD-A2 will be available Nov 20th.....

Robert, so you feel your A2s will ship out to use this week?

[eulogytool]

Since the XA2 will have HDMI 1.3, will we have to also upgrade our HDMI cables to support the extra bandwith? I know HDMI is supposedly all 'backwards compatable' but since current HDMI cables don't have enough bandwith to support the 1.3 specs (10.2gbps) I don't see how it's possible to use an older HDMI and still get 1.3 benefits..Am I wrong here?

Sorry if this question has been asked already.

[metalsaber]

Originally Posted by eulogytool

Since the XA2 will have HDMI 1.3, will we have to also upgrade our HDMI cables to support the extra bandwith? I know HDMI is supposedly all 'backwards compatable' but since current HDMI cables don't have enough bandwith to support the 1.3 specs (10.2gbps) I don't see how it's possible to use an older HDMI and still get 1.3 benefits..Am I wrong here?

Sorry if this question has been asked already.

I believe the only difference is in the actual connections on the devices and not the cable. Otherwise there would be a HDMI 1.2a cable, which I've never seen.

[shinksma]

With respect to HDMI 1.3 and cables: the cables and connectors aren't changing, AFAIK. HDMI 1.3 adds a new connector type, but does not "deprecate" (make obsolete or incompatible) the current types. So old connectors are still OK with HDMI 1.3.

Again, AFAIK, current connectors and cables are tested to HDMI 1.2 because that was the official spec to test against when designed/marketed. Right now, I'll bet cable makers are re-testing to make sure their cables pass the tests for HDMI 1.3, and if any designs fail, they'll make sure to correct whatever is causing problems.

It's a bit like when CD-R blanks first came out. manufacturers would make sure they could brag about their blanks being 4x compatible when that was the new standard, but soon enough faster burners came out and the same disks could still be burned at 16x. But when first released, 16x burners didn't exist, so it couldn't be claimed or even tested against.

shinksma

[ROB968323]

I'm not sure if this has been asked yet but I've got two questions...

1. Will the HD-A2 upconvert standard DVD disks to 1080i over component cables?

2. Are there any copyright issues with playing 1080i HDDVD over component cables?


Thanks in advance.


Rob

[gosawx]

Originally Posted by ROB968323

I'm not sure if this has been asked yet but I've got two questions...

1. Will the HD-A2 upconvert standard DVD disks to 1080i over component cables?

2. Are there any copyright issues with playing 1080i HDDVD over component cables?


Thanks in advance.


Rob

no
yes

d'oh I thought #2 said DVD...lymzy is correct

[lymzy]

Originally Posted by ROB968323

2. Are there any copyright issues with playing 1080i HDDVD over component cables?

No as long as the ICT is off. ICT is highly likely never be on before 2011.

[FilmMixer]

And Robert.. still shipping from California to the left coast?

Sold the A1 in anticipation And still waiting for 360 drive..

The A2 will bring my total HD optical players to 4 by Saturday if these ship this week... A2, 360 HD, Panny BR and PS3... I must be nuts

[2Channel]

Originally Posted by eulogytool

Since the XA2 will have HDMI 1.3, will we have to also upgrade our HDMI cables to support the extra bandwith? I know HDMI is supposedly all 'backwards compatable' but since current HDMI cables don't have enough bandwith to support the 1.3 specs (10.2gbps) I don't see how it's possible to use an older HDMI and still get 1.3 benefits..Am I wrong here?

Sorry if this question has been asked already.

I'll share what information I have on the subject.

First, an interview with one of the folks from Nordost. When asked if their new HDMI cable could support 1.3, he said that it is not certified for those data rates. They have a new cable coming out next year that will be certified to handle the 10.2gb/s of the 1.3 specification.

Second, e-mails I've exchanged with one of the folks at Blue Jeans Cable. Their contention is that there really is no HDMI cable on the market today that is certified for 1.3 and 10.2 Gb/s. They expect cables to be available in Q1 07.

I believe there are a couple of additional factors to consider. Individual cable suppliers (if they have the money) could purchase specialized test gear to determine if their cables can handle it. I'm unsure if Cobalt Cable has actually tested, but they make the following claim.

Compliant with HDMI version 1.3 for future surround sound formats. (Dolby True HD and DTS++)

If you need a cable right now, the two biggest factors you can control are to buy a cable with as short a length as you can get by with and as large a gauge as possible.

To further muddy the waters, my understanding (not 100% sure on this) is that the 10.2 Gb/s was speced to provide headroom, and that you probably won't hit those high data rates for implementations of HDMI 1.3 any time soon, so you're probably ok with existing cables in most cases.

If anyone sees mistakes in the above, please correct me.

[kanefsky]

HDMI 1.3 won't be using any more bandwidth than HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 for many different reasons.

The ability to pass TrueHD or DTS-HD would actually *reduce* the required bandwith, since you'd be transmitting compressed audio versus uncompressed PCM. Of course, this isn't possible anyway with any current HD-DVDs since conversion to PCM must be done by the player. So HDMI 1.3 won't make any difference in how audio is transmitted.

Most of the extra bandwidth would come from using deep color, but AFAIK the HD-DVD format doesn't support deep color and the XA2 isn't doing any fancy video processing to interpolate deep color. This would also require a display with HDMI 1.3 and which could actually display deep color, and there aren't any of those either.

As far as needing new cables, I'm not suprised that the companies charging outrageous prices for HDMI cables want you to buy even more expensive 1.3 cables Cables are not usually the limiting factor. The vast majority of 100Mbps ethernet cables have no trouble running 1Gbps ethernet, for example.

--
Steve

[BIG ED]

Originally Posted by TrevorS

Oh, no!

I've been afraid of hearing something like this. I fought a very long battle with jitter for LPCM, DD and DTS and finally got where I needed to be (took me years). Now that HDMI was being used to transmit the LPCM audio, I really saw no erason why the problem should be any differemt. However, everybody has been talking about how great the True-HD sound is with HDMI and so I was hoping that somehow, something, had magically changed.

So you are saying that in terms of jitter, it has been determined there is in fact no difference in performance quality between traditional digital audio connections and HDMI? If that's the case, what is the use of using HDMI for audio connections? I'm unaware of any HDMI jitter control/reduction methods and we already know the HDMI cable connections are probably the worst existing connections in the world.

Guess it's time to start web searching the topic.

No, I was just addressing digital outputs in general.
Not HDMI.
However, it scared the living daylights out of me as well, to hear HDMI has "high" jitter.
This MUST be addressed!!!

This very well might add "noise" to the video signal as well!?!?!?!?
Ugh!!!

[BIG ED]

Originally Posted by rdjam

Bigger retail price?

So, your willing to go on record that "jitter boxes" or re-clocking devices have no benefit to SQ at all?
LOL

[BIG ED]

Originally Posted by thebland

What da ya think??? Am I a jitter guy or what?

Not with ALL the wine YOU drink!!! ;-)

[REFLEX]

Hmmm the BB you were at said 20th of Nov. huh? I guess thats onyl a week away, but the one I went to said the 15th. I guess its not that much longer to wait either way, I just wish there was a defenitive answer!!!

[BIG ED]

Originally Posted by rdjam

HDMI just sends the data bit for bit - just a data connect.

I'd love to see evidence that it "creates" jitter...

OK!
Now I see a little better where your coming from. ;-)
Yes, the cable would not be at fault.
Unless it was an engineering diaster!!!
It would be the HDMI output itself.
When transferring digital signals, "jitter" can be introduced though "timing errors".
As I stated, this is a problem with all digital outputs.
Re-clocking the signal does indeed lessen the affect.

This is serious stuff for me!
I'm into HD because of sound.
Nothing against film or video.
Love those as well.
Just wanted HD disc to sound "perfect".
And thought, or was manipulated into thinking, digital transmission was the best way to do it "perfectly".
(don't worry, I can't be talked into just anything. I STILL think analog displays "look" better than digital!!!)
As well as, one cable [HDMI], was the best way to do it yet.
I will NOT buy into HDMI 1.3 (or anything else), until this jitter issue is addressed.
Thanks to all for bringing this up!

Double Ugh!!

[dazbug]

Originally Posted by TrevorS

Begging pardon for a slight step OT -- have you heard anything about this relative to the G1?

I'd like to know this as well. Im guessing yes as i think there basically the same machines ??? Robert any info in HD-A! getting dts-hd upgrade ?

[bfdtv]

I'd like to know this as well. Im guessing yes as i think there basically the same machines ??? Robert any info in HD-A! getting dts-hd upgrade ?

As noted above, DTS-HD is more cpu / processing intensive than Dolby TrueHD, so it's possible that the A1 hardware just doesn't cut it for DTS-HD.

I haven't heard Toshiba say anything (either way) about DTS-HD for the A1/XA1.

[lastxbr960]

Originally Posted by gosawx

no
yes

d'oh I thought #2 said DVD...lymzy is correct

I believe it will upconvert SDDVD over component if it is a backup copy with the DVD protection that prevents upconversion over component removed.
But no for Original Retail bought DVD's.

[DarkKnight2k4]

Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer

As far as I know, E1's are the only players clearing customs in Europe. The HD-A2's were just released last week from US customs and are in final TACP USA QC testing.

Yes we are expecting the DTS-HD audio upgrade.

-Robert

So Rob...

THis week ? huh ? Will it be ?

I am going nuts in waiting !!! I have 30+ Hd's burining a hold in their cases in desire !

[Chepekenobi]

Any news Robert?

please we are dying here...

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted by dazbug

I'd like to know this as well. Im guessing yes as i think there basically the same machines ??? Robert any info in HD-A! getting dts-hd upgrade ?

Originally Posted by bfdtv

As noted above, DTS-HD is more cpu / processing intensive than Dolby TrueHD, so it's possible that the A1 hardware just doesn't cut it for DTS-HD.

I haven't heard Toshiba say anything (either way) about DTS-HD for the A1/XA1.

Robert told me he doesn't have any information regarding DTS-HD and G1.

Given the G1 also has the four SHARC processors, I would hope it would be up to the job. And I get the impression the CPU really has yet to do much of anything (though that would probably be a stretch for it to lend a hand at audio decoding ). Still, I guess we won't know 'til it happens.

[rdjam]

Originally Posted by TrevorS

Robert told me he doesn't have any information regarding DTS-HD and G1.

Given the G1 also has the four SHARC processors, I would hope it would be up to the job. And I get the impression the CPU really has yet to do much of anything (though that would probably be a stretch for it to lend a hand at audio decoding ). Still, I guess we won't know 'til it happens.

I suspect that the only difference which may "make or break" getting DTS-HD on the 1st Gen players is the amount of memory on the SHARC chips.

Fitting the code to decode TruHD and DTS-HD may be tough.

I can't remember the amount of memory on each of the four chips off-hand (I remember posting it earlier in the year) but two of them were programmable, and two of them weren't.

If the 2nd Gen players have more of this memory, then this may mean that the 1 G players "may or may not" get DTS-HD. If it's the same amount of SHARC memory, then I believe that the 2nd Gen promise of DTS-HD will apply to the 1st Gen also.

[laric]

Hello, looks like there will be delays on G2, at least in Europe, this is what got a retailler when asking Toshiba about it. This seems to be an official Toshiba France information. (not yet confirmed) :

We have some bad news.

All Toshiba HD-E1 players that were about to be delivered later this week are bring back to Toshiba.

A part common to E1 and XE1 have some stability issues, both players will be delayed.

They are giving a february release... (although seems they don't really know).

--Patrice

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by laric

Hello, looks like there will be delays on G2, at least in Europe, this is what got a retailler when asking Toshiba about it. This seems to be an official Toshiba France information. (not yet confirmed) :


They are giving a february release... (although seems they don't really know).

ROBERT?!?!?!?!

~Alan<~~~~~~Who doesn't want to wait until February for the A2...

[UxiSXRD]

Ouch, that doesn't bode well.

[metalsaber]

Perhaps Toshiba doesn't want anyone to benefit from the 3 free movies. hehehe

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

Here's the scoop... There is a delay till the week of 12/11/06 for the HD-A2, due to the product not passing final QC and testing on all HD DVDs with all functions and features.

The problem has been isolated to a single chip, a somewhat minor component, which is supplied by a third party IC manufacturer.

Of course, this last minute problem is not an HD DVD format issue, we all know the excellent video and audio quality HD DVD produces through our experiences with Toshiba's A1, XA1 and now the Xbox HD DVD adaptor success.

More news is we will have ample supply of A2s the week of 12/11 and the HD-XA2 is still on schedule for the last week of December 2006.

Finally, I have a silver lining to offer my A2 friends to get us all happy again.

-Robert

[plazman]

Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer

Here's the scoop... There is a delay till the week of 12/11/06 for the HD-A2, due to the product not passing final QC and testing on all HD DVDs with all functions and features.

The problem has been isolated to a single chip, a somewhat minor component, which is supplied by a third party IC manufacturer.

Of course, this last minute problem is not an HD DVD format issue, we all know the excellent video and audio quality HD DVD produces through our experiences with Toshiba's A1, XA1 and now the Xbox HD DVD adaptor success.

More news is we will have ample supply of A2s the week of 12/11 and the HD-XA2 is still on schedule for the last week of December 2006.

Finally, I have a silver lining to offer my A2 friends to get us all happy again.

-Robert

Unfortunately. Once again my source was 100% correct!!!! I had posted (not sure if it was this thread or another) that the A-2 would be here mid to end Dec. I guess the silver lining for me is that I was correct on this....for Toshiba I see no silver lining except that HD DVD is clearly about to lose their competitive edge in a big way.

Just to clarify. I am not trolling and just stating facts. I say it like I see it

[darinp2]

Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer

Here's the scoop... There is a delay till the week of 12/11/06 for the HD-A2, due to the product not passing final QC and testing on all HD DVDs with all functions and features.

The problem has been isolated to a single chip, a somewhat minor component, which is supplied by a third party IC manufacturer.

Does this affect the E1s?

Thanks,
Darin